Thread: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

1. Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Imagine that the Sun had somehow become a black hole. It would appear to be a black disk 6miles across(or something in that order).

Time is stood still, and we leave earth as the indestructible observer, flying towards the black hole object.

As we get closer the black disc gets bigger.

I don't believe in the event horizon or singularity of these things, I just think that they are collapsed, and collapsing objects, which are self gravitational magnified, to the size of the Schwarzschild radius for the distant observer.

As we move in closer, I'm not sure how the object would change in size, maybe it would get bigger, smaller, or stay roughly the same size, but as we moved in to about a foot away, we would see the collapsed and collapsing object might be the size of a marble, or a grain of sand.

If time were moving, then from a long distance, this object would be collapsing very very slowly, due to gravitational time dilation. From a foot away we could just speed up time a little, and I believe that the collapsing object would be fizzling, with what what might be pre-Hawking radiation, which is something I bet happens when you get very very dense objects, like a stellar mass the size of a grain of sand.
If you could speed up time enough, then this thing would just fizzle away violently until there was nothing left. And for the distant observer billions of years would have passed.

That's how I think a trip to a black hole would be like....no event horizon, no singularity, and nowhere from which light can't escape.

I think space just changes shape depending on the observer, but mainstream science hasn't worked out the co-ordinates, or the dynamics of collapsing objects......Mainstream science just assumes something similar like that y=1/x touches the x axis, but ignores that that is at infinity, and isn't real; it just assumes that a singularity and event horizon will form. A future model that truly represents these objects will have to be dynamic, and not static,and model a collapse, and model the change in shape and size of the space-time stuff....

2. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Originally Posted by Frogmarch
I think space just changes shape depending on the observer, but mainstream science hasn't worked out the co-ordinates, or the dynamics of collapsing objects......Mainstream science just assumes something similar like that y=1/x touches the x axis, but ignores that that is at infinity, and isn't real; it just assumes that a singularity and event horizon will form. A future model that truly represents these objects will have to be dynamic, and not static,and model a collapse, and model the change in shape and size of the space-time stuff....
I understand how you arrived at this conclusion, but the conclusion is inaccurate.
In fact, you are assuming something that is not the case.

The descriptions given are not wanton assumptions made by "Mainstream" scientists at all. But it is also true that there are no direct observations up close and personal.
But from far away, we have made observations including this one.
While the word singularity often is used as synonymous with black hole, the black hole is effectively treated as a singularity in the mathematical formulas. There may well be a difference. Without better observation of black holes, we are unable to take measurements that can increase the accuracy of predictive theory.

There is one thing, however, which you are very much in error of... an assumption so large that I am quite curious how you reached it: You claimed that light can escape from a black hole. What makes you think so?

3. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

There is one thing, however, which you are very much in error of... an assumption so large that I am quite curious how you reached it: You claimed that light can escape from a black hole. What makes you think so?
well, i don't believe that an event horizon forms; I think it is a mythical creature that pops out of a simple mathematical model of black holes.
If an even horizon doesn't form then light will(unimpeded) always be able to escape.

It is also an intuitive belief that light should always be able to get from any two points in the universe.

If an EH doesn't form, and all you have is a ball of collapsing matter it makes things like conserving angular momentum easier to understand, and work with. All you have is a very time dilated ball spinning very slowly as it collapses.

4. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

NASA’s Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope detected the very weak and brief burst of high-energy X-rays, consistent with a short gamma-ray burst (or GRB), less than half a second after LIGO registered GW150914. This is surprising — it was assumed that when black holes collide, they do so “cleanly,” according to a NASA news release, not producing any kind of electromagnetic trace. So are the two signals related to the same event? The timing makes it highly likely; there’s only a 0.2 percent chance that they occurred in the same patch of sky at the same time but belonged to two different high-energy phenomena.

.....
Black hole mergers aren’t supposed to generate significant quantities of energy in the electromagnetic spectrum unless there’s a quantity of gas close to the merging region. But it is thought that the vast majority of any gases surrounding the black hole binary would have disappeared long ago.
Gamma-Ray Burst Detected Near Gravitational Wave Source : Discovery News

This may be a bit of evidence for the idea that "back holes" are just balls of collapsing matter.

I imagine, in a binary black hole system, two balls of collapsing matter; very dense(several solar masses), the size of a marble or grain of sand, rotating around each other. As they spiral in slowly, eventually they get very close. and matter from each ball flies out towards the other. Maybe it is thrown out of the system for a bit, and the two balls merge. The thrown out matter then falls in again, and like other matter that falls into a BH, it generates a gamma ray burst..

That's what I am thinking. We will have to see if other black hole -binary mergers also generate gamma ray bursts.

5. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Originally Posted by Frogmarch
well, i don't believe that an event horizon forms; I think it is a mythical creature that pops out of a simple mathematical model of black holes.
If an even horizon doesn't form then light will(unimpeded) always be able to escape.
Are you saying that the mathematical model is incorrect as to how much gravitational pull is localized?
Are you saying that the models predict a far greater gravitational pull than actually occurs?

These models are very well supported by a large body of strong evidence. I would have to ask you what, specifically, gives you cause to doubt that kind of evidence. Is it because you have relevant information?
Is it possible you have misunderstood the models or do not understand them?
Is it because you dislike their conclusions and seek to reject them based on aesthetic appeal?
Originally Posted by Frogmarch
It is also an intuitive belief that light should always be able to get from any two points in the universe.
Intuition has nothing to do with science.

Originally Posted by Frogmarch
If an EH doesn't form, and all you have is a ball of collapsing matter it makes things like conserving angular momentum easier to understand, and work with. All you have is a very time dilated ball spinning very slowly as it collapses.
Ease of examination has no relevance to what these models are trying to describe. How easy it is (or not) has no bearing on anything other than whether or not we struggle to understand a phenomenon.
Are you rejecting theory based on the concept that it is "too hard?"
In your next post you link to this article which not only refutes your conclusions but also confirms the Mathematical Model that led to modeling Black Holes in the first place.

The observation, which was announced on Feb. 11 to global fanfare, not only confirmed one of the last predictions of Einstein’s 100-year-old theory of general relativity,
...not... the most help for the case you present...

Now, I do agree with you on one point. The concept of the actual core of a black hole being a singularity is often viewed as where the mathematics to calculate it reaches an Infinite Result. This means that the physical manifestation is probably not a 1 dimensional point. However, without being able to fly into a Black Hole and make measurements of the properties of spacetime and how to make the field equations to predict its behavior, we are unable to present it otherwise at this time.

6. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Originally Posted by Neverfly
...not... the most help for the case you present...

I'm not disputing relativity....they are talking about the prediction of gravity waves, which I am also not disputing.

Einstein himself didn't really believe in the prediction of black holes from his theory, as far as I know. Relativity isn't just one thing, it's a whole load of models that different people come up with, different interpretations, different coordinate systems etc....I just think they haven't come up with the right model/interpretation to model the collapse of a massive object.

7. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Originally Posted by Frogmarch
I'm not disputing relativity....they are talking about the prediction of gravity waves, which I am also not disputing.

Einstein himself didn't really believe in the prediction of black holes from his theory, as far as I know. Relativity isn't just one thing, it's a whole load of models that different people come up with, different interpretations, different coordinate systems etc....I just think they haven't come up with the right model/interpretation to model the collapse of a massive object.
On the comment of different interpretations, different coordinate systems- No, not really.
There really is only One General Relativity.
I think you are thinking that since some models apply different coordinate systems depending on what they are studying, that means that it's like a whole new theory or new interpretation. That is not the case. It would be more akin to using a football for application in football, a cue stick for application in billiards...

8. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Onward to Black Holes:
Frogmarch,
Would you be willing to go over, point by point, the evidence in favor of Black Holes as a standing model?
Point by point, you would be able to express what you find in error or lacking.

9. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Sure....

But from what I have read, and asked, there is no real evidence for any event horizon black holes, that couldn't be evidence for compact objects just a bit larger than EH BHs.

I know there are compact objects out there, for instance orbiting stars...but that says nothing about event horizons.

10. Re: Imagined trip towards a black 'hole'.

Originally Posted by Frogmarch
Sure....

But from what I have read, and asked, there is no real evidence for any event horizon black holes, that couldn't be evidence for compact objects just a bit larger than EH BHs.

I know there are compact objects out there, for instance orbiting stars...but that says nothing about event horizons.
Your wording is odd- essentially, you just said there is no evidence of any Black holes at all.

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