View Poll Results: Change ATM name to Frontiers

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Thread: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

  1. #11
    Senior Member TaoZero5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    E-Motion attaches to concept complex and makes it sticky.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Coelacanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    I didn't post at ATM in BAUT, in fact, I never posted anywhere but Fun-n-Games. However, to say that ATM therefore has no relevance to me would be to fall into an endogeneity trap

    Seems to me, there are a few problems. There is a mainstream, and there are people in it, and they've figured out how a bunch of stuff works. But they haven't figured out how everything works, so there is still room for improvement. Unless some day we reach the point where we have figured out how the universe and everything in it works, there is always going to be something outside the mainstream, and as long as there is progress, parts of that will eventually become mainstream. How much of that process is likely to take place on internet web fora is a different issue.

    Then in ATM at BAUT, we have a mingling of different populations. The first groups, although quite diverse, could be called collectively ATMers.

    a) We have the blowhards. They don't know anything, except that everyone else is even dumber than they are. Books, universities, maths, observations, they're all just part of some big conspiracy to trick us and suppress THE TRUTH!, which is presented without any evidence at all.

    b) We have people who aren't necessarily advocating anything, but are trying to learn, and are terrified of saying, as part of their learning process, "But wouldn't that mean X?", because if they just made a mistake, off to ATM jail they go.

    c) We have people who are quite knowledgeable, who understand both the extant theories and their limitations, and are trying to understand things at the frontiers of our current knowledge, or to push those frontiers back.

    There are an awful lot of a), fewer b), and still fewer c). The non-ATMers are also diverse.

    d) There are the science fundamentalists. They don't know anything, may have just come out of some fundamentalist religious group last week, and may be back next week, but this week, they know that you must bow before almighty science, instead of the other false gods. They attempt to debunk arguments by people in group a), using arguments that are ofter just as dumb, but with punchlines that are (usually) certified correct by almighty science. (Bow and genuflect when you say that!) Walking and talking proof that buying the t-shirt doesn't make you a scientist.

    e) There are people who have a fair amount of knowledge about some things, but still possess the arrogant, dismissive attitude of the d). If you advocate anything at all not in the textbook, you are obviously part of group a), and should be spoken to with open contempt, and yet are often members of group a) themselves as soon as the topic changes. Are convinced they are smart (and within some fields, often are), and therefore are fully qualified to lecture on any topic at all, including those in which they have no knowledge, training, or experience, because they are RATIONAL. Believe they will spontaneously combust if they don't crow about how rational they and the board are every twenty minutes. The presence of this group at BAUT is why I only post in Fun-n-Games.

    f) There are people who know a lot, and also know their own limits and the limits of the mainstream. They can debunk rubbish posted by members of group a), but also intelligently and helpfully discuss the ideas of people in groups b) and c).

    If we only had groups b), c) and f), ATM at BAUT could be a really great place to hang out. But there are too many a), d), and e).
    tom and RayTomes like this.

  3. #13
    tom
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    yeah lets go with that ... he needs 5 votes MORE than the no's
    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    What if one person votes against it? Does that mean you then need six to vote for it?

  4. #14
    tom
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    It was funny because at the beginning I was going to call it notbaut.com or something like that ... but I think it was mugs that talked me out of it. ;-)



    Quote Originally Posted by TaoZero5 View Post
    I always click through to spacetimeandtheuniverse.com and had been doing that for some time before I found out it also had the againstthemainstream.com url - and, hey, there's another one, cool, spatU.org - sounds like a university for argumentation. Excellent!

    I'm happy for the name to stay the same. I know I'm not at BAUD ('cept in those paranoid moments when I think, at BAUD the ATM is like the crazy wing where they put people like us to keep us away from the sane ones - and this forum is the padded cell in the crazy wing.) A Nose By Any Other Name Would Smell

    If you're going to change the name you could call it -
    fighting the current
    up the creek
    paddle free zone
    dam the flow (no - don't like that one)
    free willy (probably taken)
    canny change the laws o physics (doobleontondra intendred)

    I'm happy to be reminded of BAUT, as we will ofttimes be. Lest We Forget.

  5. #15
    tom
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    Yeah basically ... over there they for the most part dont allow any mention of possibilities of any mainstream theory being wrong OR in any way questioning it OR when a theory is proposed that doesnt fit 100% into mainstream.

    This all being said. I like Baut ... and learned a ton from there. However there have been some very trying times over the year.

    The one that got me to start this board was this instance.

    I made a statement that mathmatically there could be other possible forces similar to spaghettification. I made it clear that I was not stating that these forces exist ... but just stating what I thought was a simple fact of other possible forces similar to spaghettification . .
    I gave them names like pea-ification, elephatification and pancakeification ... the idea was that spaghettification was a force where there was an extending force along the vertical axis and a compactification on the verticle axis ... so I thought that in theory there could be 4 forces ... 1) pea-ification - Vertical compressed , Horizontal compressed 2) pancake-ification Vertical compressed Horizontal expansion 3) elephatification - vertical expansion, horizontal expansion and 4) spaghettification -
    . vertical expansion horizontal compression.

    OK ... I thought this was an innocent enough statement ... I didnt really think that there was much to argue ... So then the post got moved to ATM ... Then I was asked to show my math ... when I asked for clarification as to what math they were asking for I was told that if I was proposing something in ATM that I would have to back it up with math and I am not showing my math ... this led to a banning for not providing math for ATM ...

    uggg .... so I started this board.

    Quote Originally Posted by RayTomes View Post
    When in BAUT I mostly posted in ATM because I got told off whenever I didn't. However I considered most of my posts far more solidly scientifically based than the twaddle that they call main stream. It has been amply demonstrated that Big Bang Theory is nothing more than curve fitting with new imaginary attributes added every time new observations show that the theory does not work. A very expert mathematician/scientist has demonstrated this in published papers.

    So I agree with Astrotech that there is a bad association with BAUT ATM in the ATM name. However SPatU is very different to BAUT as is clear to anyone who spends a little time here. So no need to get on one's high horse. Frontiers is as good a name as any.

    Years ago I started a web ring called Boundaries of Science for web sites that explored the bits beyond what was well established. It is what science is all about IMO.
    Boundaries of Science

  6. #16
    Senior Member Coelacanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    when I asked for clarification as to what math they were asking for I was told that if I was proposing something in ATM that I would have to back it up with math and I am not showing my math ... this led to a banning for not providing math for ATM ...
    Never posted in BAUT ATM, but I thought "I don't know" was an allowable answer.

    I seem to recall someone (but can't remember whom, and can't find it) who proposed an ATM theory, and then answered every single question with "I don't know". Maybe I'll try that sometime

  7. #17
    Senior Member RayTomes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    So I don't understand the problem with the label Against The Mainstream. Why is it a bad thing to be Against The Mainstream? Other than it might have been used at another board?
    Well, in many cases there is no main stream to start with. The very concept is like the IPCC trying to say that everything is settled when there is considerable dispute. The proper practice of science is to match up alternative theories and see how well they perform. In doing this proper attention needs to be made as to whether actual predictions are being made or not. In many cases of "mainstream cosmology" the things called "predictions" are actually curve fitting with extra bits added when the curves don't fit. Level playing field and all that.

  8. #18
    Senior Member RayTomes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    Excellent post by Coelacanth.

  9. #19
    Moderator grapes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RayTomes View Post
    So I don't understand the problem with the label Against The Mainstream. Why is it a bad thing to be Against The Mainstream? Other than it might have been used at another board?
    Well, in many cases there is no main stream to start with. The very concept is like the IPCC trying to say that everything is settled when there is considerable dispute. The proper practice of science is to match up alternative theories and see how well they perform. In doing this proper attention needs to be made as to whether actual predictions are being made or not. In many cases of "mainstream cosmology" the things called "predictions" are actually curve fitting with extra bits added when the curves don't fit. Level playing field and all that.
    But, Ray, that sounds like you're saying that being against the mainstream is a good thing. That was my point.

    Or what?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Coelacanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not posting in ATM until the name is changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    So I don't understand the problem with the label Against The Mainstream. Why is it a bad thing to be Against The Mainstream? Other than it might have been used at another board?
    I personally don't think there's anything wrong with being against the mainstream (or for the mainstream), provided you know what you're talking about and can justify your position. But the mentality at the other board you mentioned seems to be, ATMer == silly, stupid, ignorant blowhard. And some of them are, but not all of them. I can understand how people would not want that label applied to them, even if it is factually accurate; the label has been soiled.

    Maybe a bit like not wanting to say you believe in UFOs. Of course there are UFOs; a UFO is just something up in the air, that we haven't properly identified. Most (all?) of them are birds, airplanes, weather balloons, unusual weather patterns, etc. But say, "I saw a UFO yesterday" to a group of people, and see how they react.

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