Watch a BAUT

[astrotech]

I suggest a forum for posting threads about the badness of BAUT.

While BAUT holds the entire universe up to their form of dishonest dispute no one can dispute bad science and bad moderation on BAUT. This forum would be for that. For example a recent suspension was handed to someone for "rudeness". The rudeness was that he said "grow up". Prior to that many others posted rude and childish phrases such as "puh leeze",
"oh come off it" and "You're soooo expert" etc. you get the picture. No warnings or infractions for that.

Many threads there simply end unfinished because a mod or mod "puppy" says something that is so wrong that to dispute it would surely get mod action of some kind and thus would make any further comment a waste of time.

There are so many examples a forum would be needed to discuss them all. This new forum would be for discussion of it.

This forum would also be a document of the strategies methods and results of bad moderation. Even some long time and entrenched members of BAUT like Jay Utah is beginning to come around to seeing that moderation at BAUT causes harm.

A watch thread I would maintain in this line would be as follows

Jan 16 2012 8 AM

5 mods
56 active members

10/1 active members to mod ratio

4 suspended members.

Of course mods might not log in before taking action against a disliked member in order to dodge this watch but at least this might slow them down some.

This is just A priori wrong. One in ten members is given the power to lord it over the other 10 without their consent. Of course they can just leave the group. Abandoning all the work done to help develop and build the group before the betrayal by Phil Plait.

By the way Phil Plait is the original traitor of the Badastronomy group and a betrayer of science.

[tom]

Well I am open for anyone to finish their conversations over here ... a few times when I knew a thread was going down a bad baut route ... I would just post over there ... if you want we can discusss this point further on http://www.spacetimeandtheuniverse.com .

I am not sure I want to give too much attention to bashing baut ... I have my faults with baut but not sure if bashing them on here will help the situation there as they already know what they want and it wont help much here.

Please feel free to discuss things on here that you werent able to discuss over on baut.

I suggest a forum for posting threads about the badness of BAUT.

While BAUT holds the entire universe up to their form of dishonest dispute no one can dispute bad science and bad moderation on BAUT. This forum would be for that. For example a recent suspension was handed to someone for "rudeness". The rudeness was that he said "grow up". Prior to that many others posted rude and childish phrases such as "puh leeze",
"oh come off it" and "You're soooo expert" etc. you get the picture. No warnings or infractions for that.

Many threads there simply end unfinished because a mod or mod "puppy" says something that is so wrong that to dispute it would surely get mod action of some kind and thus would make any further comment a waste of time.

There are so many examples a forum would be needed to discuss them all. This new forum would be for discussion of it.

This forum would also be a document of the strategies methods and results of bad moderation. Even some long time and entrenched members of BAUT like Jay Utah is beginning to come around to seeing that moderation at BAUT causes harm.

A watch thread I would maintain in this line would be as follows

Jan 16 2012 8 AM

5 mods
56 active members

10/1 active members to mod ratio

4 suspended members.

Of course mods might not log in before taking action against a disliked member in order to dodge this watch but at least this might slow them down some.

This is just A priori wrong. One in ten members is given the power to lord it over the other 10 without their consent. Of course they can just leave the group. Abandoning all the work done to help develop and build the group before the betrayal by Phil Plait.

By the way Phil Plait is the original traitor of the Badastronomy group and a betrayer of science.

[astrotech]

There are two groups at BAUT, the members and the mods (+ mod pups). I don't care what the mods want. But the way opposition is handled, getting rid of the opposition, allows the bad guys to claim that no one agrees with the opposition. It's the old no one is left around to oppose the bad guys.

Many members here are here due to the bad mods at BAUT. Badastronomy was a good group. It is not good because the mods do a good job it was good before the mods. The bad moderation at BAUT force marched the group of what were intelligent critical thinkers down a road to non criticism of the powers that be there, bad science spewed by the powers that be, and led the group into betrayal against the critics of the mods.

Our group here now is still pretty thin. Badastronomy got popular by being one of the first and through coincidence of good members (and I include myself in that group) became popular. Its popularity plataued when the mods were given power over the group, and its been declining ever since. These were strangers who didn't know the group and the group didn't know and were merely posters on Plait's blog, some with as few as 30 posts. There has been an obvious brain drain at BAUT since the mod take over.

I'm sure that since the bad take over of Badastronomy by those mods that there is a need for a science forum run with better principles. But I think the principles needed must be foundational of a good forum because good members, intelligent, imaginative, critical thinkers have been burned by forums enough and have little tolerance for the kind of unprincipled administration of forums like BAUT.

This could be that good forum. But so far this forum is just "permissive". This can be switched off with the flick of a switch. The purpose of a forum aimed directly at BAUT is to have a consolidated place where the bad principles of BAUT can be documented and discussed and where the better principles here can be exemplified. In effect this proposed Watch a BAUT forum can be poiinted to if bad principles are applied here and we can say "see, that's the kind of thing that happens at BAUT".

Just as Badastronomy was founded as a place where discussion of bad science was encouraged and education against bad science happened this proposed forum would be founded as a place where bad science forums can be discussed and education against bad forums can happen.

A place where bad administration of forums can be criticised would be unique because nearly all forums prohibit such criticism. Such criticism is foundational to good administration of anything. Repressing it is a priori bad. It dooms every forum it rears its head. Thats a shame. I'm sure we've all seen forums doomed because of this kind of thing.

The governors must rule by consent of the governed and repression of criticism is well known to be an effective, though temporary, method of undermining consent.

I don't know where you come from but in the free world the power of governance ultimately resides with the members. But at BAUT the mods have said directly that they OWN the group. No, they OWN the equipment. They've PWNED the group.

[grapes]

I don't know where you come from but in the free world the power of governance ultimately resides with the members. But at BAUT the mods have said directly that they OWN the group. No, they OWN the equipment. They've PWNED the group.

Directly? I doubt that you can link to a post where any BAUT mod has said that.

So far as I know, it's always been said that Phil Plait and Fraser Cain own the forum, not the mods.

[Azure Infinity]

Look, do we want a forum where people who want to learn more can come and explore? Or do we want a forum where only elitists and power mongers troll? It's that simple. I'm a teacher. I like answering questions over and over. This place is comfy. We could just be assholes and slam everyone that posts?

I was banned from Space.com for standing up to the moderator. He's a meteorologist, like my C++ teacher was, but since he's 'the' moderator, no-one was allowed to challenge his, shall we say, 'mathematical prowess'. I walked on him and then walked away. Only I know how hard he failed. Last time I saw, he's the only one posting. Oh, MeteorWayne, how lonely you must be!

Is there some kind of prestige that comes from being allowed to post on BAUT?

[Bananas]

This whole idea looks like an unhealthy obsession to me. The proposers' current signature only adds to that impression. (Needing to make such a statement, whether true or not, just seems a bit stalkerish.)

Is there really any value in singling out that one other forum for such scrutiny, and to post about it here?

Why not just go directly to making this place the place you want it to be? ... a much better use of effort.

It seems there are unresolved - feelings - that need to be let go.

[astrotech]

Jan 19 2012 10:30 am

2 mods
8 active members

4/1 active members to mod ratio

OOOHHHH I have feelings about the issue. How horrible. I dion't like a forum that I helped make into one of the most popular on the net that allows a small unelected group of mods have power over and mistreat its best and brightest members.

I think BAUT is going to collapse because of the mods. I've seen all the forums I participated in collapse because of mods. I'm saying document the fall.

The internet is new. Moderation was an attempt to make forums better. But it turned out to be a bad idea. Like any every facist idea (the mods at BAUT DO admit it IS a dictatorship) it may seem like a good idea at first but it has to be administered by humans and humans with no constraint on power abuse it.

The behavior of BAUT is IMHO an excelent example of how smart critical thinking people can be led into bad principles. Because at BAUT the abuse is so blatent yet also accepted it makes a good observational study of the phenomenon.

Why would those who have the capability of critical thought and whose favorite pastime is criticising everything they think bad, unscientific and wrong under the sun be opposed to criticism of that one site. Criticise movies, media, TV, magazines other sites, but not BAUT. Hmmmm. Seems like religous fervor to me, and boy is THAT typical of BAUT.

Of course we can look at the childish, unprincipled, unscientific, unimaginative and ignorant sort of arguments certain people make like disparaging the character of opponents by charging "emotion". Like people who want to discuss life in space must have some "emotional need" for life in space. Or that someone who vigorously, and worse sucsessfully, defends their position or proves a mod or mod pup wrong or unprincipled is ATM and quickly suspended and banned.

That's the kind of thing you get when you get rid of the good brains. All that's left are children and tricksters.

Badastronomy was a strong group before the mods, and that's why it lasted so long under the onslaught of those mods. I didn't think it needed the mods when the idea first came up. I knew then it would go like this. I suspect the mods tricked their way into it by pestering Plait on his blog. I see BAUT declining rapidly now so I don't think this study or BAUT will last very long.


Jan 19 2012 11:30 am

8 mods (2 admins)
56 active members

6/1 active members to mod ratio

Looks like someone there is trying to manipulate the stats.

[grapes]

Azure: I'd like to see a good math dustup, do you have a link to the discussion?

Astrotech: Is that a retraction, about the ownership claim claim?

[astrotech]

Azure: I'd like to see a good math dustup, do you have a link to the discussion?

Astrotech: Is that a retraction, about the ownership claim claim?

No this is ignoring questions from a person who obviously doesn't operate on the terms of mutual respect I require. I'm not going to argue with your trickery on the phrasing of pwnership with you. They have said many many many times that it's their house and people have to play by their tricks. They say it IS a dictatorship. Sounds to me like they think they own it. And they do. Anyone who submits to that kind of dictatorship is a slave and is owned.

[grapes]

No this is ignoring questions from a person who obviously doesn't operate on the terms of mutual respect I require. I'm not going to argue with your trickery on the phrasing of pwnership with you. They have said many many many times that it's their house and people have to play by their tricks. They say it IS a dictatorship. Sounds to me like they think they own it. And they do. Anyone who submits to that kind of dictatorship is a slave and is owned.

Sounds to you like?

The reason you think you're not getting any respect here in this thread is not because I wouldn't offer any. It's because now you're lying and you know it.

But at BAUT the mods have said directly that they OWN the group. No, they OWN the equipment.