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Thread: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

  1. #11
    Senior Member mugaliens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    This is an interesting experiment! And reasonably similar to the U.S. Government, which is a Republic. Translated, the term "republic" means "the people thing" i.e. "The Law."

    Here's an interesting 10 min video which explains Monarchy, Oligarchy, Democracy, Republic, and Anarchy in greater detail.

    And here's a recent post I created for another forum:

    Please give me twenty seconds of your time this morning. If you like the little video (Link), I have some very enlightening text for you, along with one or two more videos.

    After watching, please consider the following:

    - Our Founding Fathers were keen students of history. All of them had read at least some textbooks on the history of various world governments. Some had read entire libraries.

    - Our Founding Fathers considered, and rejected, the proposal that we become a democratic nation, for one simple reason: It doesn't work. In fact, throughout the history of mankind, it has never worked. We'll get to why it'll never work in a minute.

    - Instead, the U.S. was formed as a Republic, as per our Constitution: "Article IV, Section 4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..." In fact, the constitution in every one of our 50 United States reflects the fact that we are a Republic.

    - It isn't up to the government to maintain our form of government. Governments have always, and will always, act in their own self-interests. Anticipating this, our Constitution puts rather severe limits on our federal government, reserving in the 10th Amendment all powers not specifically given to the feds in the Constitution to the States or the People. Yet our federal government, acting in their self-interests, has so grossly overstepped the bounds of their Constitutional limitations in the last 100 years it's sickening. That's why Benjamin Franklin, when asked what form of government we'd be, replied "A Republic. If you can keep it." It's up to us, we the people, to tackle a runaway by any and all means necessary, including the last resort of, God help us, that which is outlined in our Second Amendment. This is why, incidentally, Obama and Hillary Clinton partnered with the United Nations this summer and fought so viciously via the UN Gun Ban Treaty to undermine our Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Congress said "NO!" yet Hillary recently signed agreements with the UN anyway, and quite illegally at that, for as per our Constitution, all treaties must have consent of two-thirds of the Senate.

    - So now we're back to the "why." Why does democracy fail? The answer is simple, really: Human Nature. Some will argue "we just need to retrain everyone," yet in 10,000 years of trying, that has never worked. Even if you provided for 100% of the material needs of everyone on the planet, they stopped having babies, and you could train them from birth to age 50, the training wouldn't take in at least half of them, as the training is an idealism. It's not reality. It ignores the fact that humans are, as are all animals and plants on our planet, hardwired for survival, and that includes during times of scarce resources hoarding more than our fair share for ourselves and our families. Even in times of plenty people are constantly doing this. No one willingly lowers themselves to the lowest standard of living just so others can have more. Even missionaries don't do this. The most altruist they get is to keep themselves well fed so they can continue to be healthy and help others.

    - This factor, human nature, is why governments cannot seem to make the cuts necessary to keep themselves healthy. Like a parasite, they'll suck their victims, er, "citizens" dry, even if it means the death of our their means of existence.

    - It's up to the victims, er, "citizens" to throw off the parasite our government has become, and restore it to the Constitutionally limited form of government upon which our country was founded. Thus, a Republic CAN be restored.

    - A democracy, however, always tends to devolve, first into one or more forms of state-controlled socialism (communism, fascism, Marxism, etc.), and when that fails, the people revolt, and you have anarchy. I'll try to find you the best video which describes this in more detail. Perhaps someone knows the animated video of which I speak, circa WWII, and can add it in the comments.

    Here's another video <---Link, this one ten minutes long, which explains the five major forms of government, why two of them really aren't valid forms at all, and why of the remaining three one always has, and always will fail. It leaves two valid forms of government. Our Founding Fathers knew this, studied both in excruciating detail, and rejected one in favor of the other.

    After watching the video, ask yourselves what form of "government" exists in 99.999% on all message forums in existence, and why, and please share your conclusions.
    My oath of office never expires. "God, who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson. "I have far too long suffered fools. No longer will I tolerate the insufferable. Enjoy the vacuum." - Mugs

    PS: I scrambled my password, so no, I will not be responding. Get a clue.

  2. #12
    Senior Member TaoZero5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    It seems there are invisible members (?) Or maybe my browser (IE) can't count.
    users.jpg
    Not that I'm saying that Astromark has secret identities - I've seen the same when the only member online was Grapes.

    How can we know who's voting if invisible members do exist?

    Democratic Elections invite corruption unless there is a rigourous, openly transparent, system of monitoring - and still corruption happens.
    We need to be able to trust those who run the elections.

    Without even trying, I can think of 3 locations where I could get online and, while maybe getting some kudos for encouraging "friends" to join the forum, create alter-egos (suck-poppets).

    How high would the voter turnout be? And how long would initial interest persist?
    The hoi-oligoi could easily allow the hoi-polloi to rule, knowing full well that only a few percent would remain actively committed for any length of time. Then the hoi-oligoi quietly take control once again.
    With voting on rules every month? I think a high proportion of the members would stop paying attention - especially if members are not actively informed of rule changes.

  3. #13
    Moderator grapes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by TaoZero5 View Post
    It seems there are invisible members (?) Or maybe my browser (IE) can't count.
    users.jpg
    Not that I'm saying that Astromark has secret identities - I've seen the same when the only member online was Grapes.
    Go to Settings, then General Settings, the first option (for me anyway) is something called Invisibile Mode. It means Mark and I have not set Invisibile Mode.
    How can we know who's voting if invisible members do exist?
    Git should take care of that.
    Last edited by grapes; 10-04-2012 at 06:46 PM.

  4. #14
    Senior Member TaoZero5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    Go to Settings, then General Settings, the first option (for me anyway) is something called Invisibile Mode. It means Mark and I have not set Invisibile Mode.
    Git should take care of that.
    Ah! Little bit less ignorant - Little bit less paranoid. Thank you.

  5. #15
    Moderator grapes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Yw, but don't take my word about the Git thing. I dunno--and if there were an argument about Linux, and Torvalds was on one side and ten thousand programmers were on the other, I think I would favor the short side. (I know, I know, that's an unrealistic example, the ten thousand would too, but you get my meaning.)

  6. #16
    Moderator grapes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Ain't this cute:
    Linus Torvalds

  7. #17
    Senior Member mugaliens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by TaoZero5 View Post
    How can we know who's voting if invisible members do exist?
    Yeah... no. No such animal. We delete abusive posts. If that's what's missing, I suggest you get on with what's left standing

    Democratic Elections invite corruption unless there is a rigourous, openly transparent, system of monitoring - and still corruption happens.
    We need to be able to trust those who run the elections.
    Means of ensuring 100% un-biased role in the fight? How about we hire aliens? Seriously. As a registered statistician, I can't say a whole lot, but I can say a bit, including what I perceive to be a fact that the Obama campaign has consistently, repetitively, and incessantly, lied their way into, and through a presidency. I'm not alone in my thoughts on this subject. Most of those with whom I served feel much the same, particularly after Obama attempted to block votes from overseas servicemembers, as well as his most recent attempt to quell any and all commentary from their dependents!

    My God! What lunacy befuddles our White House! Have those who support this any idea as to what this means for the real, long-term freedom of our nation? For their own individual freedoms? Have they the slightest clue as to what they'd be giving up under the guise of socialism? Just watch Agenda and your eyes will be opened. If you don't think it's real, I can introduce you to half a dozen folks who lived through it, escaped, and who're telling their tale of escaping socialism only to find themselves fighting this nemesis who killed their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters once again on their very footsteps here in America.

    Back to the topic at hand...

    Without even trying, I can think of 3 locations where I could get online and, while maybe getting some kudos for encouraging "friends" to join the forum, create alter-egos (sock-puppets).

    How high would the voter turnout be? And how long would initial interest persist? The hoi-oligoi could easily allow the hoi-polloi to rule, knowing full well that only a few percent would remain actively committed for any length of time. Then the hoi-oligoi quietly take control once again.
    With voting on rules every month? I think a high proportion of the members would stop paying attention - especially if members are not actively informed of rule changes,[/QUOTE] or worse, if such changes rarely affect them until their cumulative effects wipe them out. Such was what happened in Germany during WWII, and such is what's happening here in the US. If you're not seeing it, start studying history. You'll see it.
    Last edited by mugaliens; 10-16-2012 at 05:13 AM.
    My oath of office never expires. "God, who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson. "I have far too long suffered fools. No longer will I tolerate the insufferable. Enjoy the vacuum." - Mugs

    PS: I scrambled my password, so no, I will not be responding. Get a clue.

  8. #18
    Senior Member TaoZero5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Quote Originally Posted by mugaliens View Post
    Yeah... no. No such animal. We delete abusive posts. If that's what's missing, I suggest you get on with what's left standing
    grapes cleared that up for me. I had forgotten that it was possible to hide the fact that I was logged on if I wanted.

    Means of ensuring 100% un-biased role in the fight? How about we hire aliens? Seriously. As a registered statistician, I can't say a whole lot, but I can say a bit, including what I perceive to be a fact that the Obama campaign has consistently, repetitively, and incessantly, lied their way into, and through a presidency. I'm not alone in my thoughts on this subject. Most of those with whom I served feel much the same, particularly after Obama attempted to block votes from overseas servicemembers, as well as his most recent attempt to quell any and all commentary from their dependents!

    My God! What lunacy befuddles our White House! Have those who support this any idea as to what this means for the real, long-term freedom of our nation? For their own individual freedoms? Have they the slightest clue as to what they'd be giving up under the guise of socialism? Just watch Agenda and your eyes will be opened. If you don't think it's real, I can introduce you to half a dozen folks who lived through it, escaped, and who're telling their tale of escaping socialism only to find themselves fighting this nemesis who killed their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters once again on their very footsteps here in America.
    When you say "socialism" I think what you mean is "extreme socialism", also the word 'socialism' seems to have a different meaning in American English from the meaning in English English.

    I watched the videos and it makes some sense to me but it's only one way of looking at it - I don't think it's a single spectrum.
    then I watched some of the George Carlin videos and he makes a lot of sense too.
    Watching the Democracy Vs Republic video prompted me to think, 'mis-representation', again and again.
    That's what happens a lot, in politics, and both sides do it (two party system). Each side mis-represents the other side, mis-represents themselves, mis-represents the facts, the statistics, the history.

    We have a Capitalist Economy - have had since before Marco Polo journeyed to China ( I also watched Andrew Marr's History Of The World ) - and it doesn't really care what sort of government any country has, so long as it can do business.

  9. #19
    Senior Member mugaliens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Congratulations - You're both of the profound, as well as the absurd.

    When you say "socialism" I think what you mean is "extreme socialism..."
    No. Just socialism.

    also the word 'socialism' seems to have a different meaning in American English from the meaning in English English.
    The language matters not, Tao. What matters is what they're attempting to do to America.

    [quote]I watched the videos and it makes some sense to me but it's only one way of looking at it - I don't think it's a single spectrum.[quote]

    Would you be more convinced if I were to offer you the thousand of videos all say much the same thing, but from many different perspectives? Might that change your word from "I don't think it's a single spectrum" into something more realistic, such as "Oh my God, I had no idea of the horrors and atrocities committed under the name of socialism!"

    Between 135 Million and 600 Million dead. We don't know. Records weren't kept. Compare that to the 6 million Jews, of the 15 Million sympathizers who died during the Holocaust. Wow. Some 22 to 600 MILLION dead. Thanks to socialism. That's ten TIMES more than everyone who has died in every war known to mankind to date.

    Do you REALLY want to continue to support this unbelievably vast level of mass destruction? Are you that crass? That anti-American?

    Please print this out and past on your neighbor's doors. Just simple taping will do. If they don't come around, they've confirmed themselves to be "progenitors of the new regime."
    Last edited by mugaliens; 11-02-2012 at 02:35 PM.
    My oath of office never expires. "God, who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson. "I have far too long suffered fools. No longer will I tolerate the insufferable. Enjoy the vacuum." - Mugs

    PS: I scrambled my password, so no, I will not be responding. Get a clue.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Proposal For Democratic Rule Clreation, Deletion and Editing

    Time for me to make my excuses and leave, I think.

    Advice for Tom: It's your forum, you write the rules. But, just advice, sack Mugs as moderator. Quash Nev's banning. Stop all the Baut/CQ sniping. Concentrate on your forum doing what it could do well, ATM without the specific limitations of time and co-operation imposed elsewhere. I'd discourage swearing, politics, and religion, but that's up to you.

    But don't mind me, I just happen to think that "socialism" is a word of wide application that doesn't necessarily include the pernicious tyrannies that have claimed to be implementations of it. Clearly that distinction will find no favour here.
    Neverfly likes this.

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