Thread: How can a infinite universe compress into a singularity?

Originally Posted by JFalz1024

I'm scrolling through reading everything and it doesn't appear any points were agreed on.

I would agree with that

Originally Posted by JFalz1024

1) Is the universe an open or closed system? (By definition the universe is EVERYTHING, so the assumed answer is closed, correct?)

I guess, although I don't know if what I would mean by "closed system" is the same thing that anyone else would mean.

Originally Posted by JFalz1024

2) Where is the universe expanding? (Is it at the edge? Is there an edge? Or is it expanding literally everywhere? But that would include the space between earth and the sun, the moon, the other planets, other solar systems... which leads me to ask the next fundamental question... can something (space) be generated from nothing (the "vacuum" of space))

I don't know the answer to the question, but is there a difference between the vacuum of space and space itself?

Originally Posted by JFalz1024

The nature of numbers clearly indicates nothing quantifiable is ever truely infinite- you can always just add more zeros or what have you.

I'm not sure how to take that. I don't think the nature of numbers in and of themselves tell us anything about the universe. Numbers are abstract things that we have created in our brains. Now, why did we create these particular abstract objects, rather than some others? We live in the universe and observe various physical phenomena around us, so we have a tendency to create abstract objects that are useful for modelling the real objects. So maybe they are informative in that sense. But as for something quantifiable being infinite, do you simply mean that "quantifiable" means a (finite) number can be associated with it, so it must not be infinite? If so, then that would be tautological. (So I would agree )

Originally Posted by JFalz1024

So if the universe IS infinite, it has to be in a qualitative property and not quantitative.

I don't know what it means to be qualitatively infinite, but I do think I know what it means to be quantitatively infinite - larger than any finite quantity. So I think the universe could conceivably be infinite in that sense, which would mean the size of the universe is larger than any finite quantity. Whether that is actually the case, I do not know.

Originally Posted by JFalz1024

In the quantitative aspects, can you suppress all the energy in the universe into a single point (which in reality doesn't even exist)? That sounds beautiful but quite honetly the more I'm wrapping my mind around it, the more fantastic and less likely it seems.

I don't think you are alone on that. As I understand it, the singularity is what happens if we take the laws of physics as we know them, look at the universe, and try to figure out what it looked like some time ago. However, our understanding of the laws of physics is incomplete at best (and wrong at worst), and before we get back to the singularity, we encounter a situation in which our understanding of the laws of physics begins to fail.

So I think the current answer on whether there actually was a singularity is, nobody really knows for sure. Perhaps a more knowledgeable person will disagree in the posts you find below this one

'JFalz1024' There is nothing wrong with your assumption of the first question you propose..

Your assumed closed system would match the best scientific knowledge we have...

If the Universe began as a singlearity and the great expansion begun.. 'The B B ' then yes it can be described as ...

"Finite but unbound." That word unbound is used because that expansion is on going and seemingly endless.

expanding at a ever faster rate ongoing and still...

That is as best I can judge, is the mainstream view of what science has learned, and is my view of knowledge 'known'.

Your second run of questions is a little more wobbly... Where is it expanding. That I can answer with absolute certainty...

Expanding everywhere that gravity does not overwhelm.. That is I believe clear and sure.

BUT. but, it must be added that in accordance with the best scientific arguments...

ALL of the above might be replaced any minute with and as new information is obtained...

Its never a done deal. We always have much to learn. and good on you for asking,... Mark Lee.

Let's face it, infinities do exist. Our feeble minds can't wrap around it. Those who claim they understand real math, are clinging to something close to religion.

If you doubt it, play with the Mandelbrot set for a while. Crash your computer for a good reason for once! In fact, here's a good place to study: The Mandelbrot Set ...There's infinity in applied science. Download the harmless app, study it, crash your computer when you get to 0.0000000000000000000000000001 resolution. Learn that your computer can't handle infinity any more than you can, because humans invented computers. Move on.

The study of Scalar Symmetry is a great place to learn that our math abilities as humans, don't quite reach reality. Study chaos theory for a while too, if you can tolerate the mind-f***. Great stuff.

I am very comfortable in an infinite, yet unbounded Universe. Some suggest, that if you traveled at 99.99999997% speed c in one direction, travelling across the Universe, you might reach your starting point within your life span. I'm not suggesting you try it, but it's a nice thought. If you choose to do it in a car, be sure to turn on your head-lights, ya know, just to see what happens.

Originally Posted by JFalz1024

So have we agreed on anything here yet? I'm scrolling through reading everything and it doesn't appear any points were agreed on. I think a starting point is in order. I will ask a few additional questions as well...

1) Is the universe an open or closed system? (By definition the universe is EVERYTHING, so the assumed answer is closed, correct?)
2) Where is the universe expanding? (Is it at the edge? Is there an edge? Or is it expanding literally everywhere? But that would include the space between earth and the sun, the moon, the other planets, other solar systems... which leads me to ask the next fundamental question... can something (space) be generated from nothing (the "vacuum" of space))

I feel addressing these questions allows us the framework to answer if space is infinite at all, and if it can be compressed into a singularity. What do we mean by infinite? The nature of numbers clearly indicates nothing quantifiable is ever truely infinite- you can always just add more zeros or what have you. So if the universe IS infinite, it has to be in a qualitative property and not quantitative. In the quantitative aspects, can you suppress all the energy in the universe into a single point (which in reality doesn't even exist)? That sounds beautiful but quite honetly the more I'm wrapping my mind around it, the more fantastic and less likely it seems.

...Your thoughts?

A singularity is the result of a formula which includes an infinite value. Its the point where our current understanding of science breaks down. Our physics may not even apply at this point, so trying to get your head around it is difficult to say the least!
No one knows what happens at the point of a singularity, we can't measure it or quantify it, only by using the term "infinite". So if the BB started out from a singularity then you can quantify it which ever way you please, either zero, finite or infinite no one can prove or disprove you either way, but they can offer you probabilities for their arguments. My view is that the singularity at the start of the BB was both zero and infinite, that is the point I have been trying to convey. Whether i'm right or wrong I cannot say but if either one is valid then why not both? If the quantitive value of the universe was infinite at the singularity then it still is infinite, its just that you can measure some of it relative to yourself, because now since the BB there is space and time to do so.
The finite but unbounded argument is just as plausible, if you imagine all the energy/matter in the universe to have a quantitive defined value & the space just keeps on expanding indefinitely. But remember in the BB theory there is no edge to space, and its expanding "into" nothing it just expands.

Originally Posted by David M W

No one knows what happens at the point of a singularity

This is my understanding as well. The equations describing the laws of physics as we currently understand them predict some really really weird things under certain extreme circumstances; we are unable to recreate these extreme circumstances in a laboratory or observe them in nature, so we have no way of knowing if our equations really work in those extreme circumstances. Maybe in the future, we'll figure it out . . .

"My view is that the singularity at the start of the BB was both zero and infinite, that is the point I have been trying to convey."


I think that is also the case David. I think that the absolute nothing had absolute potential. A blank canvas holds millions of masterpeices and countless more disgraces waiting to be produced. In my case, only disgraces. LoL.