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Thread: Wave Functions and Decoherence

  1. #1
    Senior Member mugaliens's Avatar
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    Default Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Nifty little article explains things rather well.

    Excerpt:

    If the wave function is merely knowledge-based, then you can explain away odd quantum phenomena by saying that things appear to us this way only because our knowledge of the real state of affairs is insufficient. But the new paper in Nature Physics gives strong indications (as a result of experiments using beams of specially prepared photons to test certain statistical properties of quantum measurements) that this is not the case. If there is an objective reality at all, the paper demonstrates, then the wave function is in fact reality-based.
    My oath of office never expires. "God, who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson. "I have far too long suffered fools. No longer will I tolerate the insufferable. Enjoy the vacuum." - Mugs

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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Nah, I (or at least me, I don't know about you) am just a focal plane on which reality deposits itself in the form of photons through the optical lenses of my eyes, but I can't see any of them, since I can't go into my own brain to assess the results of quantum experiments in decoherence there. It is true, however, that I notice occasional patterns in that which I think is my reality, whatever that means... If they are just testing photons with a single wavelength, then there is no change in color, so all they are verifying is that h is constant for their experiment (the action per cycle of a coherent signal)...

    (Stay tuned, I am about stick a new pdf on this very subject on my site... I'll try to announce it here if I remember)....

    So the real question is "Do I exist as an observer"? Well, I think so (I'm not sure about you.., but then the question becomes "Do I even have have a brain" (vs. Pure Thought thinking about Pure Thought)?

    Where did that idiot idea of "focal plane" come from? If there is no light, does the universe exist? Or suppose there is light, but I just can't see it?

    That article is what comes of teaching physics courses at the University of Las Vegas.... and I suspect the authors have not derived the Lorentz transform from first principles (as an interpretation of the MM experiment) and examined its consequences at the most fundamental level... and the changes Einstein made and his misinterpretation of that in terms of spacetime "frames" rather than quantum mechanics and particles (distinguishable or not)

    This "merely knowledge-base" corresponds to Einstein complaint that QM contains hidden variables. Well, ok, the hidden variables are what is causing the photo-electric effect, which is what he got the Nobel prize for, and then questioned the rest of his life (just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there, but you have to turn around VERY quickly...

    Now I REALLY need my beer and pizza..
    Last edited by BuleriaChk; 02-22-2015 at 04:49 PM.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member mugaliens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    What in the world does any of that have to do with dual-slit experiments and decoherence?
    My oath of office never expires. "God, who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson. "I have far too long suffered fools. No longer will I tolerate the insufferable. Enjoy the vacuum." - Mugs

    PS: I scrambled my password, so no, I will not be responding. Get a clue.

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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Quote Originally Posted by mugaliens View Post
    What in the world does any of that have to do with dual-slit experiments and decoherence?
    "Is there a true story, or is our belief in a definite, objective, observer-independent reality an illusion?"

    "This very question, brought into sharper, scientific focus, has long been the subject of debate in quantum physics. Is there a fixed reality apart from our various observations of it? Or is reality nothing more than a kaleidoscope of infinite possibilities?"

    (The question I am attempting to answer is why my answer to the original post is relevant....

    What does it mean for the wave-function to be real? That it is positive definite? Or "not"? Not to mention the issue of causality (Wick ordering) ....

    Technically, has to do with how you interpret the concept of periodicity in quantum mechanics w.r.t. STR.... and Einstein's discomfort with "hidden variables" to explain coherence... (As long as the equations are linear, a la Maxwell, there is no issue; but there is no mass. So the question is the "real state of affairs", which requires a deeper analysis.)

    The controversy is at the very root of the philosophy of science and the problem is between Maxwell's equations, Einstein's interpretation of STR in terms of "inertial frames" and quantum mechanics. At the bottom is the meaning of "gauge invariance" (the "vector potential" and its relation to mass through the Lorentz force and the corresponding interpretation periodicity of the wave function) ... and the imposition of global covariance on the theory of knowledge ( Ontology, epistemology ,and teleology) ...

    I'm interested in what they mean by "specially prepared" photons, though (which I assume means a preliminary filter of some sort - maybe "quantum squeezing"? Polarization?) ... and how it applies to the Fock space compared with Minkowski space and its "metric"..

    That said, I think I might agree with the original source article from its synopsis, if I understand that much of it properly....
    Last edited by BuleriaChk; 02-22-2015 at 11:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Quote Originally Posted by mugaliens View Post
    Nifty little article explains things rather well.
    [ ... deleted ... ]
    This is one time that I will need to disagree with you. To me, this represents the NY Times just being the NY Times: parroting the politically correct version of science rather than real science. It hellps to actually have had a course in QM. Singly, the electrons behave as single electrons and collectively the electrons behave statistically. This results that from the basic precepts of QM. For each observable you substitute the QM operator for the observable:

    (Eq 1)

    So the eigenequations would be

    (Eq 2)

    The mystery that the article mentions is not really the mystery. The mystery is in what it all means. The part that the article seems so mystified about is actually very straightforward.
    Last edited by kg4pae; 03-03-2015 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Bad math symbol; Spelling
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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Quote Originally Posted by mugaliens View Post
    What in the world does any of that have to do with dual-slit experiments and decoherence?
    BuleriaChk rarely knows anything about physics.
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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Quote Originally Posted by kg4pae View Post
    BuleriaChk rarely knows anything about physics.
    Kg4pae knows only how to parrot equations without understanding their meaning.
    In particular, anything to do with relativity and quantum mechanics...
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    The Relativistic Unit Circle 03/28/2017 07:40 AM PST
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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Quote Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
    Kg4pae knows only how to parrot equations without understanding their meaning.
    In particular, anything to do with relativity and quantum mechanics...
    There are some major differences between BuleriaChk and me:

    1. BuleriaChk has asked me to get ¨out of [his] thread¨, even though his threads correctly belong in »Against The Mainstream«, not here. I on the other hand try to give answers that are generally accepted by the physics community.
    2. BuleriaChk spouts his delusions as fact even though they are wrong almost every time. I on the other hand emphasize the generally accepted views in the physics community, especially whenever I disagree with the prevailing view.
    3. BuleriaChk has absolutely no clue about Relativity and precious little knowledge about QM. I have taken courses in Relativity and QM, since they are required for my Physics degree.
    4. BuleriaChk ignores me by responding to my posts. I feel sorry for BuleriaChk´s ignorance.
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    Default Re: Wave Functions and Decoherence

    Sometimes I'm serious, and sometimes I'm not. Intelligent readers usually can make the distinction, it is obvious that kg4pae cannot. Kg4pae's response to my serious analyses are just stupid and ignorant - without analysis ..... I'm not against the mainstream (whatever that is), and I often quote from Wikipedia...
    _______________________________________
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    The Relativistic Unit Circle 03/28/2017 07:40 AM PST
    Proof of Fermat's Last Theorem Updates 03/19/2017 8:23 PM PST
    Ignore List -The Peanut Gallery.

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