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Thread: Neverfly vs BuleriaChK

  1. #1
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    Default Neverfly vs BuleriaChK

    BuleriaChK,
    I believe that you are brilliant. Much of what you say shows your deep intellectual understanding of very complex topics. However, you are also a human being. Being a human being means we must use the Scientific Method to replace our egos in the conducting of experiments and the conclusions of the results.
    I believe you are operating under a misconception: That Photons can move at a speed other than "c."
    You say that light can be slowed to Less than "c." While on the surface, that might appear to be true, since light appears to slow through a medium. But does it really? Or is there something else going on there that is well understand by Mainstream Science and was well understood also by Einstein? Conservation of Energy.
    We have covered that topic heavily in two threads now.
    Now, I am challenging you:
    Demonstrate that photons can move at Less than "c" with hard experimental data.
    Because so far, you have repeatedly injected the claim that "c" is a faith based concept that is in fact a variable and your support for this claim is that "light slows down through a medium."
    You are, of course, free to ignore or reject this challenge. But if you choose to do so, every time you make the same claim in a thread, you will lose standing and support for that claim since you have failed to Scientifically Demonstrate Validity of it.
    You also have the option of using the Scientific Method to reject Ego.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Neverfly vs BuleriaChK

    Quote Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
    I have offered to walk you through the Lorentz transform as the foundation for both Special and General Theory of Relativity, and can quote from innumerable sources, but if you are not interested in what Einstein actually proposed (or the Christoffel parameters mean eventually) then I have no more to discuss with you.
    But that will not demonstrate that:
    1.) Photons slow down
    2.) "c" is a variable.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Neverfly vs BuleriaChK

    Recap and highlight of the Dispute over "c":
    In this thread the debate began on whether or not a photon moves at "c" and if the constant known as "c" is actually constant. In that thread, BuleriaChK did concede the math of Conservation of Energy but referred to the difference between "light slowing down" and "Light always moving at 'c' but experiencing delays" as an issue of Semantics.
    In this thread, the debate has continued anew. This thread makes it more clear why it is not an issue of semantics and why accuracy can be very important.

    If Einstein really did lack confidence in "c" or its value, as BuleriaChK says he did, there would be no Theory of Relativity. This is because Relativity relies heavily on "c" being a constant.
    If "c" was a variable, it would not have made any sense to formulate something so counterintuitive as the notion that time was a variable. But Einstein reasoned that if "c" was a constant and "v" was increasing, then that meant only "t" time and "m" mass could change in order to balance the equation. That is the basis of Relativity and the Mass/Energy Equivalence. There would be no E=mc2 without "c."
    The same is true for trying to apply time dilation to "c". The equation itself relies on "c" being a constant.
    A photon which has no mass and moves at "c" would have a time dilation factor of 100% that in simple terms means, if a photon could have experience, it would not experience time at all. Given it's Proper Time, "v" also cannot be changed. It must move at "c" and "c" remains "c" and the time dilation equation cannot move forward with a calculation.
    How then, can it dilate?
    This provides the insight into why BuleriaChK, a brilliant mind and accomplished scientist, would have a misconception: Because he operates under the assumption that a photon reduces speed when traveling through a medium. And if it does, that means you can apply the time dilation equation to it.
    But that first requires showing that a photon can slow down.
    Given the misconception that light slows down, he plugs in the speed given the refraction index and viola: gets a result.
    But that result does not align to Theory and seems to have also caused BuleriaChK some reservations about if "c" is a constant and how stable Relativity is.
    At this point, BuleriaChK must be willing to be taught instead of doing the teaching.

    So if a photon has energy but no mass given E=hf the photon has momentum p = hf/c = h/λ. No mass, but has momentum. Since it has momentum, Conservation of Momentum applies.
    Since it has energy, Conservation of Energy applies:
    https://www.boundless.com/physics/te...oton-668-6239/
    Any physicist already should know that a Photon moves at "c" and only at "c" and when it encounters a medium or matter, it's energy is transferred to an electron and the photon no longer exists.
    He also should know that when "v" is equal to "c," the time dilation equation does not apply.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    Default Re: Neverfly vs BuleriaChK

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post

    (snip)
    I wasn't going to continue on with this, but just to be clear:

    Neither Special Theory of Relativity or Quantum Field Theory apply to Classical Physics in the domain in which the speed of light is actually measured through ponderable matter (which includes the lenses used in Geometric Optics. The theory says that whatever the speed of light (c) is measured at, it travels at v/c through an "ether"' that is, either gravity or light-on-light interaction. It doesn't apply to Macro media such as steel plates, the skins of fast burn boosters, or lenses as formed glass.

    The effect of light-on-light "in vacuo" is very small (which is v/c, where v is the velocity of an "ether" as interpreted by the Michelson-Morley experiment); the fact that no ether was detected has nothing to do with a medium that includes ponderable matter.

    Measurements of c in the real (material, not quantized) world of Coulomb, Ampere, Newton, and Maxwell apply to vastly different scales than those relevant to either STR or QFT.... and in these domains, light is an electromagnetic wave, with energy transfer described by the Poynting vector, not the photo-electric effect (which applies to photo-electrons).
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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Neverfly vs BuleriaChK

    Quote Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
    I wasn't going to continue on with this, but just to be clear.
    There is nothing wrong with adding clarity and especially nothing wrong with addressing a challenge.
    The purpose of the scientific method is nor personal. It is to suss out the best accuracy.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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