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Thread: Is one minus one nothing?

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    Default Is one minus one nothing?

    Is one minus one nothing? I have two apples, I eat one by one, math appears right, because now there are none. When I use thought and look deep inside, the two apples are still there, is math still right, only because the apples, are out of my sight?

    If an apple has become what an apple cannot be, then how was it an apple in the first place?

    If math describes a point in space, then reality proves empty and none right and logically makes sense. If math describes possibilities in a point in space, then reality proves not possible right and logically makes sense. What does math describe?

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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    Is one minus one nothing? I have two apples, I eat one by one, math appears right, because now there are none. When I use thought and look deep inside, the two apples are still there, is math still right, only because the apples, are out of my sight?

    If an apple has become what an apple cannot be, then how was it an apple in the first place?

    If math describes a point in space, then reality proves empty and none right and logically makes sense. If math describes possibilities in a point in space, then reality proves not possible right and logically makes sense. What does math describe?
    Subtraction in math is defined as adding the negative of the number. The negative is defined as what you add to the (positive) number to equal zero. For example if we were to start with 5 apples and eat 3, then we would calculate the result with

    (Eq 1)

    As far as space goes, in 1=dim the minus sign (negative) is just a reverse of the positive direction. This finds application in problems like the calculation of Work done. Work is defined as

    (Eq 2)

    As long as the movement is along the line of force then a positive force in a positive direction will result in positive work done. However if the movement is against a positive force in the negative direction then there will be work given up. As a side note, itīs this feature that allows the Law of Conservation of Energy to be true.
    Last edited by kg4pae; 02-28-2015 at 01:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    If your first equation is correct, then 1 + (-1) = nothing, empty or none. I have two apples, not one and negative one. Both are positive, more than none. According to your math equation, both apples are not the same; one is exactly the opposite of the other. Is that reality? Does less than none exist in reality, or does math not describe reality?

    When exactly in the instant of time from the point I hold the apple in my hand, to the point it is in my belly, did the apple change from something to nothing, empty or none?

    For the second part, at what point is eating an apple negative work? Every action I have done in my life was a positive force, based on my relativity. If you were on the opposite end, your relativity might claim the opposite, but not always.

    If I am swimming against the current, my work is negative, because I am not moving forward or even moving backwards, is that what that formula proves? Whether the force is positive or negative, it is still a force, a matter of which force depends on relativity, doesn’t it?

    Subtraction in math is defined as adding the negative of the number. The negative is defined as what you add to the (positive) number to equal zero.

    So math must equal zero, and defy reality to force it, which is my point, zero is not nothing, empty or none, but balance, reality. Reality is something, not nothing. Can math describe nothing? If zero is nothing, empty or none, then every something proves math wrong, at every instant of time, no matter which point we choose to equate it.

    I really appreciate you trying to help me, and by no means claiming that you are wrong, only that I do not understand how math describes reality, as you explained it.

    PLEASE, take breaks and focus on helping yourself or another, life is more than thinking. Time can wait, in my opinion, there is way too much still to learn.
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 03-04-2015 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    If your first equation is correct, then 1 + (-1) = nothing, empty or none.
    Technically that is not the right interpretation of the equation. If we write

    (Eq 1)

    we mean that we have one apple, then get rid of it, perhaps by eating it. So we have no apples left. It doesnīt mean ĻnothingĻ which would be written

    (Eq 2)

    which, of course, is incorrect. We could make this more explicit by writing

    (Eq 3)

    Here is another example: We have 3 apples and 2 oranges. We eat 1 apple and 2 oranges. What is left?

    (Eq 4)

    Thus only 2 apples are left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    I have two apples, not one and negative one. Both are positive, more than none. According to your math equation, both apples are not the same; one is exactly the opposite of the other.
    No, that is not what the equation says. I get the feeling that you are trying to overthink the problem. This is a problem of cardinality, ie how many there are. What I am getting to is say you have 5 apples and want to eat 7 apples. Math would then prescribe

    (Eq 5)

    which is interpreted as that you need 2 additional apples to your 5 in order to be able to eat 7, ie you are 2 Ļin the holeĻ to be able to eat 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    Is that reality? Does less than none exist in reality, or does math not describe reality?
    Math better describe reality, since mathematicians consider themselves guardians of things that are true in any possible universe. If for some reason math didnīt describe something in our particular universe, then there would be a major problem not only for math, but all the other sciences as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    When exactly in the instant of time from the point I hold the apple in my hand, to the point it is in my belly, did the apple change from something to nothing, empty or none?
    Thatīs going beyond the simple arithmetic you originally asked about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    For the second part, at what point is eating an apple negative work? Every action I have done in my life was a positive force, based on my relativity. If you were on the opposite end, your relativity might claim the opposite, but not always.
    Negative work? The concept of work is different from cardinalty of (how many are in) a set. Remember that work is defined as

    (Eq 6)
    where P=Pressure; V=Volume

    Whether the force is positive or negative depends on the coordinate system and the direction in that coordinate system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    If I am swimming against the current, my work is negative, because I am not moving forward or even moving backwards, is that what that formula proves?
    If there is no movement then there is no work.

    (Eq 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    Whether the force is positive or negative, it is still a force, a matter of which force depends on relativity, doesn’t it?
    Mmmm. The direction is important. Consider gravity. In this case

    (Eq 8)

    In the usual coordinate system, the up direction is positive. So has a negative value, since gravity pulls down. Thus also would have a negative value. If an objecty were to fall with gravity from x=A to x=B then the work done would be

    (Eq 9)

    Note that and point in opposite directions so that the inner product is negative. Also note that since A>B, B-A<0 (negative). So that by the way work is defined, positive work is done in falling. If on the other hand the object were pushed from x=B to x=A then B-A>0 (positive) then negative work would be done. Of course we could have chosen the coordinate system differently to change the signs of work, but the important thing is that the physics itself would not change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    Subtraction in math is defined as adding the negative of the number. The negative is defined as what you add to the (positive) number to equal zero.

    So math must equal zero, and defy reality to force it, which is my point, zero is not nothing, empty or none, but balance, reality.
    ???? Now Iīm convinced you are overthinking the situation. Math is a model of reality. We can stick math into a computer and ask what should the result in reality be. If the result agrees with reality then we have confidence that the math model probably is good. If they donīt agree then the math model is wrong. Reality always takes precedence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    Reality is something, not nothing. Can math describe nothing?
    Yes, that is what the empty set =ø={} is for. However, you should not rest on Ļcommon senseĻ understanding for reality, since it can lead you astray. The topology of the empty set is a case in point. We usually think of top being over the bottom of a box. However consider the empty box, ie contents=ø={}, Because of the way top (supremum) and bottom (infemum) are defined, we end up with the top being below the bottom. It is only if the box has something in it, ie content, that the top ends up above the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    If zero is nothing, empty or none, then every something proves math wrong, at every instant of time, no matter which point we choose to equate it.
    Zero is not nothing. It is however the cardinality of nothing, ie how many things are in the empty set=ø.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    I really appreciate you trying to help me, and by no means claiming that you are wrong, only that I do not understand how math describes reality, as you explained it.

    PLEASE, take breaks and focus on helping yourself or another, life is more than thinking. Time can wait, in my opinion, there is way too much still to learn.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by kg4pae; 03-06-2015 at 03:54 PM. Reason: Limits on Work Integral; Tex
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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    What is the math equation when I eat one apple? That would probably clear my very confused brain. Time and the universe make more sense to me when I change everything into one possibility, which everything is, until we examine what that one is made of. When I consider nature, possibilities split or merge, one into two or two into one.

    Are there any experiments that can change empty or none into an apple, or does an apple only change into empty or none? For the universe to recycle, every something should stay something. This is what I'm trying to understand.

    An apple and I, both are possibilities, I eat the apple, math says minus the apple and it no longer exists, the apple however does exist and is added to me, the opposite of minus, the apple and I becoming one, relativity changing math to the opposite extreme, minus to adding and not possible from empty and none.

    As far as force, if I am pushing you and you I, both our forces are positive. If you are stronger and pushing me back, and if we remove relativity, both our forces are still positive, and when we apply relativity, we see you are a stronger force and I am less. But I do not consider my force negative, just less. If I push harder and push you back, your force is still positive, just less. I only see this because I do not see less than none in reality.

    Now is faster than our perception, there is a part of the universe we do not see, less than none does not exist in reality, if zero is balance, negative numbers could explain the opposite of the universe, creating balance. How else could the universe be balanced?

    When I balance my checkbook, zero is balance. To achieve balance on a scale, two objects have to be the same weight. Gravity does not apply negative and positive force to achieve balance, it is the same force.

    If I buy a stock at ten dollars and it drops to one dollar and then goes up to two, all the news is about the one hundred percent rise. What price did you buy it at? Relativity is the problem. For me, applying relative, I can say (-9) and (+1). For you, the same event, same math, different results. Consider the relativity of the stock price alone, it was less and now more. At no point does the stock go less than none, relativity creates negative, less than zero. For time, only one possibility matters, now, (2), and at no point can a stock be negative, or less than zero. Unless we consider our national debt, but that is not a problem, I will pay it tomorrow.

    Relativity is a fact, I see it as a deception, time affects one way, our relativity perceives time, and our relativity’s perception of time is irrelevant to the relativity, perception or reality of time itself. If I could find the book that I can read that in, it would prove it as a fact, if it was written by a human, I would not believe it, if I did, I would be part of a religion. Science is not religion.

    If a book already has all the right answers, then everything would already be known. If our understanding of math is so right, how can any theory based on it be wrong?

    Nothing I wrote is at you, you are the first person to respond to me in six months of trying. Thank you very much for taking so much time and work to explain it to me. I do appreciate your time; I did not want to take so much of your time. For me, 1+1 and 1-1 is my limit, unfortunately, my reality, or maybe just my perception?
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 03-23-2015 at 05:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    I do believe you are having fun with the different phraseology being used when trying to compare abstract ideology with your concrete 'reality'. You described it all in your last sentence. Your perception is your reality, and you have set your own boundaries in that reality.

    I knew what you were doing as I read your first message. My Beautiful Lady (my wife) does this to me all the time as she teases me about 'imaginary numbers'; those that I use on a regular basis, when trying to calculate the the size (value) of a capacitor or coil in the feedback loop of a power supply or amplifier...
    But, unlike the person you were previously communicating with, I don't remember how to enter information into my computer, and make those pretty equations like he(?) made. I really did see those equations as moving pictures, none of them were stills (single photographs of individual instances), and I understood them. I just don't remember what each of the symbols stood for.

    We all have boundaries. Some we set for ourselves, and we live comfortably within them; blissfully ignorant, and almost proud, of the things we wish to know nothing about.
    Then, other times, boundaries are forced on us, like mine was in mid-career. A series of TIAs and several medium-sized strokes; and WHAM! ... I'm done. Time is missing (years, my late 40s and most of my 50s), I was only semi-aware of its passage; the 'why' parts are still there; the 'What' I did, memories, are still there; and the Desire... It's still there, too. It's just the 'How' part that I just can't quite reach... YET!
    My wife is still encouraging me, through her gentle teasing; trying to assist me in recovering what went inaccessible.

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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    Thank you for response David. I never understood those equations, and I am a very simple man, what has helped me in almost everything I have tried to learn and have been successful in is too take the complicated to its simplest form, and build from there. Then, for me, confusion sets in for good, I just keep trying and it helps me all along the way, in more ways than I could have imagined.

    Please tell your wife for me to keep lovingly pushing you, chance and change do exist with time, and the human brain is amazing, it can heal itself, proven by some who were in a coma for so many years, and wake up better, life is truly a miracle.

    I am trying to understand time, and if I fail along the way, it just proves I am like every other human, and learning is hard, but gives us purpose in more ways than one.

    I have learned that many facts can be wrong. One that has never changed, the best I can do, is my limit, and with time and perseverance, that limit, can change.
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 03-23-2015 at 08:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    Is one minus one nothing? I have two apples, I eat on...
    There it is. Implicit in your assumptions is that you have two apples to eat. After you eat them, they are no longer available to eat. You focus on their existence, but not their availability.

    You have two apples and eat them, they are still their constituent parts, nothing "disappears". In that case, 2=1+1, the two apples remain.

    You have two apples to eat, and you eat them. They are no longer "apples to eat", that attribute has disappeared. 2 - 1 -1 = 0

    In both cases, the math reflects reality.

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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    There it is. Implicit in your assumptions is that you have two apples to eat. After you eat them, they are no longer available to eat. You focus on their existence, but not their availability.

    You have two apples and eat them, they are still their constituent parts, nothing "disappears". In that case, 2=1+1, the two apples remain.

    You have two apples to eat, and you eat them. They are no longer "apples to eat", that attribute has disappeared. 2 - 1 -1 = 0

    In both cases, the math reflects reality.
    Try set theory. Or systems analysis. In either, their arguments fail altogether.
    My oath of office never expires. "God, who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson. "I have far too long suffered fools. No longer will I tolerate the insufferable. Enjoy the vacuum." - Mugs

    PS: I scrambled my password, so no, I will not be responding. Get a clue.

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    Default Re: Is one minus one nothing?

    I do not know those models but I do understand what you are saying, math does describe reality until one considers time. Whatever I pick, I cannot find empty or none at any instant based on the object I am observing. Water is a perfect example, if it is empty or none it is because it is somewhere else. The water itself, which math claims to describe, is not empty or none, just the space I am observing. Is math describing a point in space or the water?

    For example, I have a small rag with one ounce of water. I want to measure the water as it evaporates over time. Eventually, the water in the rag is empty or none. I was not measuring the rag but the water. Based on the relativity of the rag, empty or none is right, based on the relativity of the water, which I was measuring, it is not.

    We are missing something, I just don’t know what. Time and math, based on my understanding, have a problem. Mostly with empty or none, but I also see more. Relative and relativity could be part of the problem; the only problem is that they are also part of the solution.

    Thank you both for responding.
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 05-16-2015 at 07:53 AM.

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