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Thread: Are opposite forces the same?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    That force and magnetism still blows my mind.
    You haven't even gotten to the really mind blowing part yet.

    It does things that seem pretty straight forward. Like a ball rolls along, hits a wall in one spot and bounces off. Pretty straight forward, right? But under certain circumstances it rolls along then splits into several balls before it hits the wall in several places. Not only that, it does that only when you're not watching it. When you're watching it just rolls and hits in one place. It seems to know when you're watching.
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  2. #12
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotech View Post
    You haven't even gotten to the really mind blowing part yet.
    Great, maybe I should just quit while I still think I have chance. Yikes! I won’t quit, something about curiosity and a cat keeps screaming inside of me.
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 06-02-2015 at 10:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Global magnetism in materials is conceptualized by "domains", which are magnetic alignment of atoms within the material that lead to perceived external force fields when another magnetic sensitive object is brought near (Faraday's "lines of force"); if the "poles" are the same, the ends of the material repel, if opposite, the ends of the material attract.

    Electromagnetic fields in classical physics are described by E and B fields. Very roughly speaking, "E in direction of motion, B perpendicular to the direction of motion"), B oriented as curled by the fingers of your right hand with the thumb in the E direction.

    Microscopically, the effect arises from an "intrinsic" property of the electron called "spin" which arises from its local interaction with a B field (via the Lorentz force). "Spin up" and "Spin down" which is a conceptual way of assigning the total effect quantum mechanically to the electron (because the B field arises from the interaction between the electrons, rather than from an external source). (I'm discussing this right now in the thread "The Pauli and Dirac Matrices", which is Pauli's model of electron spin, extended later by Dirac to anti-matter. It does involve a bit of philosophy, and is still under construction ...

    The reason why the Lorentz force is important is because it is the fundamental relationship between mass and electromagnetism for real observable interactions; and the analyses mentioned above refers to equal and opposite (inertial and electromagnetic) forces interacting at a single point in space and time...

    F = mA = q(E + v x B) The "vector potential" A is the Electromagnetic force per unit mass:

    A = (q/m)(E + v x B)=[q(E + v x B)]/m

    ("x here means "cross" product, or "outer" product, not conventional multiplication)
    Last edited by BuleriaChk; 06-03-2015 at 10:58 AM.
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    You can look up youtube videos of people playing with magnets. But you should still get yourself some to play with yourself. See how the effect gets stronger when they are close and weaker as they are farther. See how the force feels with the magnets in your hands.

    The thing about the sun.
    Imagine a pile of ball shaped magnets. They will all settle with their opposite poles attached to each other and combine their magnetic fields into one big field. The sun has a strong field but the balls are being stired up by the heat and turbulence. So its like the pile of magnets being stired up. You don't have one big field. You have a pile with bunch of fields of all sizes and strengths and the poles turned every which way. They're all moving around, changing orientation of poles, trading balls from one to each other, and changing sizes and strangths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    I have played with them, tried to imagine how they work, not being a scientist, I don’t get very far. I will try again.

    You have explained well enough even for me to understand better. That force and magnetism still blows my mind. Where does it come from, when I have seen images of it at the sun, it changes, comes and goes, at least at the same point.

    I have much to read and learn if I want to understand it better.

    Thank you much for giving your time.
    Last edited by astrotech; 06-03-2015 at 11:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
    Microscopically, the effect arises from an "intrinsic" property of the electron called "spin" which arises from its local interaction with a B field (via the Lorentz force). "Spin up" and "Spin down" which is a conceptual way of assigning the total effect quantum mechanically to the electron (because the B field arises from the interaction between the electrons, rather than from an external source). (I'm discussing this right now in the thread "The Pauli and Dirac Matrices", which is Pauli's model of electron spin, extended later by Dirac to anti-matter. It does involve a bit of philosophy, and is still under construction ...
    I am just a baby (in my mind) and taking my first steps in magnetism. I have no doubt that many here can benefit from what you are doing. Maybe I can participate some day.

    Thank you for helping everyone and responding.
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 06-03-2015 at 08:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotech View Post
    You can look up youtube videos of people playing with magnets. But you should still get yourself some to play with yourself. See how the effect gets stronger when they are close and weaker as they are farther. See how the force feels with the magnets in your hands.

    The thing about the sun.
    Imagine a pile of ball shaped magnets. They will all settle with their opposite poles attached to each other and combine their magnetic fields into one big field. The sun has a strong field but the balls are being stired up by the heat and turbulence. So its like the pile of magnets being stired up. You don't have one big field. You have a pile with bunch of fields of all sizes and strengths and the poles turned every which way. They're all moving around, changing orientation of poles, trading balls from one to each other, and changing sizes and strangths.
    That helps me better understand. I have so much to learn about this, and great suggestions.

    Thank you again.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Magnetism is a force, a force we cannot measure or experience directly, only its effects.

    Based on an article I read, the force of gravity, I’m assuming that is a force, its affects are far less than the effects of magnetism by far, and that is how a magnet can pick up a pin against gravity.

    It appears the effect of a force, magnetism, can overcome, or is separate in space, and the affect of gravity is irrelevant.

    Gravity may have some affects on the effects of magnetism, and the only way to know is if magnets work the same in space as on the earth. Whether it pulls or pushes more or less.

    Either way, the earth only stretches space so much and not all of space, part of space remains relatively flat. The earth has that part of space inside of it, but the earth is separate from it.

    My only guess, so far, is that the force of magnetism is in the part of space the earth is not, possibly a depression, and the depression is changing space and the effects go up into the part of space the earth is in. The force could be pointing away from the earth and that is why we don’t experience the force, just the effects. The opposite effects are caused by quantum entanglement, which lately, is my favorite answer to everything opposite.

    Of course I don’t know what quantum entanglement is, but I can write the words, isn’t that enough?

    The opposite effects of magnetism do point in the same direction. That has to mean something.

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotech View Post
    It does things that seem pretty straight forward. Like a ball rolls along, hits a wall in one spot and bounces off. Pretty straight forward, right? But under certain circumstances it rolls along then splits into several balls before it hits the wall in several places. Not only that, it does that only when you're not watching it. When you're watching it just rolls and hits in one place. It seems to know when you're watching.
    That might be explained simply because of our perception, in other words, our perception cannot perceive those several places at once. I know my perception is flawed every now and then. Just another wild guess. Not the part of my perception being flawed, that is a fact, proven over and over again, like its looped.

    Is there any way to stop, prevent or change magnetism other than other magnetism? One answer was to put it in a metal box, but that doesn't stop it or change it, just the effects outside the box. If I read that correctly. Still doesn't answer the question, unless the answer is no.

    What happens to a magnet if broken in half? Found all kinds of answers, mostly, it depends. I don't know what to believe. One answer was no matter how many times its broken, it remains a magnet. That's weird, magnetism just wants to be, and does. The material that makes a magnet is in the part of space the earth is in, and that material pushes or forces the force of magnetism into the part of space the earth is not. That could be how the force is facing away from the earth. That is the only way that makes sense to me, so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotech View Post
    The thing about the sun.
    Imagine a pile of ball shaped magnets. They will all settle with their opposite poles attached to each other and combine their magnetic fields into one big field. The sun has a strong field but the balls are being stired up by the heat and turbulence. So its like the pile of magnets being stired up. You don't have one big field. You have a pile with bunch of fields of all sizes and strengths and the poles turned every which way. They're all moving around, changing orientation of poles, trading balls from one to each other, and changing sizes and strangths.
    I'm wondering if what is happening in the sun is the breaking of some of those balls apart and the fusing of others into one.


    Magnets have been discussed since about 625 bc. That is a long time, and with all our advances there are still unknowns. Since I’m just starting, I’m not going to feel bad for not knowing anything. Two sources, if it’s right, electric current and spin of elementary particles. I can imagine the electric current as causing spin, but what makes the elementary particles spin and make magnetism? There has to be a reason. Apparently, special relativity mixes them and explains everything. Oh boy, a theory, my favorite.

    I like simple, but I’m not sure if this is right. A magnet has two poles. I split it in half, now there are four, two in each. Where did the other two come from? I take those two magnets, and make them one; the four poles are two, where did the other two poles go? Poles are popping into and out of existence, which makes no sense to me. What makes more sense is that all the poles are already there, possibly in every point of space that are part of the magnets effects. The center is the key, my guess is balance. As balance happens, all the poles get reoriented. How does that reorientation happen and how do they create the shape that they do? What limits them and makes them turn back onto itself?

    Quantum entanglement is a connection thru time, that is how distance is being irrelevant and an instant connection makes any sense to me. Not sure how that fits magnetism, balance and a depression in space causing the directions and the turning on itself makes more sense, so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
    The reason why the Lorentz force is important is because it is the fundamental relationship between mass and electromagnetism for real observable interactions; and the analyses mentioned above refers to equal and opposite (inertial and electromagnetic) forces interacting at a single point in space and time.
    That possibly could be quantum entanglement, and I'm assuming that the point has size with two inside. For inertial and electromagnetic forces to be in the same point, a electromagnetic force would exist in a non electromagnet, but not doing any thing, if I understand that correctly. Is it possible it is just one force and the inertial force can change back and forth, depending if electricity is there? Nope, when the electricity is turned off its not a magnet anymore. When electricity is introduced, it could change the elemental properties to poles, the same as a non electromagnet has.
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 06-08-2015 at 09:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    If you plan to play the fool don't expect me to "help". Trying to flatter me by thanking me in PM for "help" is a common way to evade criticism for foolishness. It isn't going to prevent me from criticizing you.

    Your last few posts are foolish babble. You claim you read a couple of articles and want to expound on high physics. Do you expect that kind of ignorance to be treated with respect because you thank people for "help"?

    You claim the be old enough that you should not act like a foolish child and expect to be treated with respect.

    If you want to play the fool I can and will use you as an example to teach others about foolishness. But don't expect it to be respectful, flattering or fun for you.
    Lies have the stench of death and defeat.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotech View Post
    If you plan to play the fool don't expect me to "help". Trying to flatter me by thanking me in PM for "help" is a common way to evade criticism for foolishness. It isn't going to prevent me from criticizing you.

    Your last few posts are foolish babble. You claim you read a couple of articles and want to expound on high physics. Do you expect that kind of ignorance to be treated with respect because you thank people for "help"?

    You claim the be old enough that you should not act like a foolish child and expect to be treated with respect.

    If you want to play the fool I can and will use you as an example to teach others about foolishness. But don't expect it to be respectful, flattering or fun for you.
    You miss interpreted my message. First, it's a PM, if you had a problem with it, you couldn't respond with this in a PM?

    You're the only one who has helped me. Have you never made a mistake?

    Did I not write that the post was not meant for you. I did not write that post right, like so many others that I have done. I did not PM you for your help, just to tell you without the help you gave me, I had no chance to understand this. I was not asking you to help me more, just trying to explain that post.

    Not sure how to make up for it. I can't forgive for you, that is your choice.

    Did you start knowing everything?

    I already know I'm a fool. If that makes you feel better, then teach me a lesson.

    And that foolishness I wrote above is how one learns. Learning requires failing, not repeating what one has been told.
    Last edited by Eleftherios Karagiannis; 06-09-2015 at 07:27 AM.
    Sometimes, the logical answer defies logic....Stupid accident.

    If my thoughts are math, how can I be wrong?

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Are opposite forces the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleftherios Karagiannis View Post
    You miss interpreted my message. First, it's a PM, if you had a problem with it, you couldn't respond with this in a PM?

    You're the only one who has helped me. Have you never made a mistake?
    Ho boy! I was trying to help, but sometimes you gotta help yourself too. I would've loved to have seen what you're talking about in the OP, and maybe re-interpreted it, or explained it, or learned from it. But you weren't forthcoming.

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