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Thread: Proton Tunneling within a compound

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    References please ...

    This is my understanding of it. Quantum = reality.
    That is not the copenhagen interpretation.
    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    No measurement is possible as any measurement does not measure the system but actually measures the system and observer pair ... It is impossible to remove the observer from the observation.
    Yes, this is the measurement problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    I would like you to prove that, without observation.
    I cannot. This is the Measurement Problem and it is why there was a meeting in Copenhagen that resulted in the Copenhagen Interpretation.
    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    everything exists as probabilities and amplitudes, certainty is non-linear. There is no other way to explain it without introducing non-linearity and the observer/measurement problem.
    Exactly. Which means that we treat the probabilities as reality in our Model.
    But that does not mean that the superposition is a literal reality.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Double Post:
    The Many Worlds Interpretation is an alternative to the Copenhagen Interpretation and the Many Worlds Interpretation treats is as you are saying: That literal multiple realities exist.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

  3. #13
    tom
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Yes, but that is the base experiment and the results of that are always consistent. I am referring to our instrumentation in more complex experiments. .
    A Quanta of energy is a wave. That wave goes through both slits at the same time and interferes with itself. However, the photon can only be measured as a single energy packet either in a slit, or at the detector after the slits. The superpositions are the probabilities of the photon following a certain path. In fact all paths are followed just at differing amplitudes. and these paths interfere with themselves
    Last edited by tom; 04-26-2016 at 05:46 PM. Reason: and these paths interfere with themselves

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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Double Post:
    The Many Worlds Interpretation is an alternative to the Copenhagen Interpretation and the Many Worlds Interpretation treats is as you are saying: That literal multiple realities exist.
    Copenhagen Interpretation as well.

    Per wikipedia:

    "Schrödinger's cat is a thought experiment, sometimes described as a paradox, devised by Austrian physicistErwin Schrödinger in 1935.[1] It illustrates what he saw as the problem of the Copenhagen interpretation ofquantum mechanics applied to everyday objects. The scenario presents a cat that may be simultaneously both alive and dead,[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] a state known as a quantum superposition, as a result of being linked to a random subatomic event that may or may not occur. "
    Thus SC, including the both alive and dead part, is based on the Copenhagen Interpretation.
    Last edited by tom; 04-26-2016 at 05:50 PM. Reason: quote wikipedia

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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    But that does not mean that the superposition is a literal reality.
    Then what is it?

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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Poor wording on Wikipedia. As I have already said, it is assumed to be both states, treated as both states because we cannot determine which state. This does not mean that they are saying they are literally both states. The irony is that this is something that Bohr loved to tease Einstein about...
    The Many Worlds Interpretation is the one that says that both states are a reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    Then what is it?
    It is a state that is not yet determined, therefor treated as both states until a determination is made.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    tom
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It is a state that is not yet determined, therefor treated as both states until a determination is made.
    If the photon is following a path, how can it interfere with itself then.

    BTW per wikipedia: "According to an opponent of the Copenhagen interpretation, John G. Cramer, "Despite an extensive literature which refers to, discusses, and criticizes the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, nowhere does there seem to be any concise statement which defines the full Copenhagen interpretation."[8]"

    So basically I think we are arguing as to what the Copenhagen Interpretation actually is. I see nothing online that defends your definition basically saying that the cat is either dead or alive in a certain state just unknown. I believe in fact that SC was created to illustrate the strangeness of the quantum
    world by Copenhagen Interpretation's definition , through a macro object.

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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    If the photon is following a path, how can it interfere with itself then.
    That is a good question... And updated models are needed (and available.)
    Phys. Rev. Lett. 59, 2044 (1987) - Measurement of subpicosecond time intervals between two photons by interference
    http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10...ce.cld.iop.org

    Maxwells equations for photon behavior are not bad tools for the job... but not exactly the most accurate, either. This is something we began to realize only recently, thanks to the development of High Power Lasers.
    So this is a case where an older experiment (For example, Youngs), perfectly valid for its time is now outdated.

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    "Despite an extensive literature which refers to, discusses, and criticizes the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, nowhere does there seem to be any concise statement which defines the full Copenhagen interpretation."
    Well, now there is. Aren't ya glad you met me?
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post

    It is a state that is not yet determined, therefor treated as both states until a determination is made.
    I disagree with this statement and I disagree that this is what Copenhagen Interpretation has defined. But its OK ... I think we both understand each others point of view and can move on.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    I disagree with this statement and I disagree that this is what Copenhagen Interpretation has defined. But its OK ... I think we both understand each others point of view and can move on.
    Maybe you can but I can't.
    According to Bohr and Einstein, who teased eachother quite a bit over whether or not the Moon is there in the sky if no one sees it, the interpretation means that the moon is there, even if you cannot see it. The probability is nothing more than our ability to see it. The wave function model substitutes for our ability to directly observe the actuality.
    This interpretation is established in the vast majority of literature but even to this day, misunderstandings abound.
    Even some of the scientists, upon leaving Copenhagen, were a bit unsure as to what the final resolution was.:P
    Again, to state that the probability is an actual physical reality is the Many Worlds Interpretation, which states that two separate and nonidentical realities are created with the advent of a wave function and the collapse of the wave function destroys one reality.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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