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Thread: Proton Tunneling within a compound

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    tom
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    Default Proton Tunneling within a compound

    How does protein tunneling happen within a compound? So I understand the concept of proton tunneling where a naked proton can tunnel from one state to a very unlikely other state. However if it happens in a compound, then what? Will there be a superposition with a different polarity as the proton is positive then if it tunneled to another part of a compound it would create superposition as a different compound with a different polarity?

    Also all of the papers I have seen on proton tunneling seem to address only a naked proton and not something like Calcium tunneling to a Potassium state.

    Does anyone know about this? Can you explain it to me?

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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    You don't ask questions lightly, do you?
    How much do you currently know about Double Well Potential?
    The proton would remain positively charged throughout.

    Edit To Add:
    Here is a wiki page on Nuclear Shell Model.
    The section "Deforming the Potential" would have your interest, since a deformed shell relates to the potential for two atoms (example, Hydrogen) to have one well deeper than the other.
    In such a state, the proton will have a greater probability of moving to the deeper well. This has been suggested to explain Spontaneous DNA mutation. I'll look for a link in a moment and edit it in.
    For now, here is an abstract that covers the gory details using two D modeling.
    .
    ETA -2 :
    Jeez, all I had to do was stick to wikipedia. It mentions it in the Quantum Tunneling page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantu...s_DNA_mutation
    Last edited by Neverfly; 04-25-2016 at 11:41 PM.
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    tom
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    You don't ask questions lightly, do you?
    How much do you currently know about Double Well Potential?
    The proton would remain positively charged throughout.

    Edit To Add:
    Here is a wiki page on Nuclear Shell Model.
    The section "Deforming the Potential" would have your interest, since a deformed shell relates to the potential for two atoms (example, Hydrogen) to have one well deeper than the other.
    In such a state, the proton will have a greater probability of moving to the deeper well. This has been suggested to explain Spontaneous DNA mutation. I'll look for a link in a moment and edit it in.
    For now, here is an abstract that covers the gory details using two D modeling.
    .
    ETA -2 :
    Jeez, all I had to do was stick to wikipedia. It mentions it in the Quantum Tunneling page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantu...s_DNA_mutation
    Not fully buying it. The tunnel is only a superposition. Basically the proton is in both places just with different amplitudes. Again the wave function only collapses upon observation ( by things in "entangled" superposition states ). The DNA should be in both states one with a higher frequency and one with a lower frequency ... also to the best of my understanding these two super positioned states can interfere/interact with each other

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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    I don't agree. Again, I adhere to the Copenhagen Interpretation. In which case, an object is not literally super-positioned. The wave function is merely a description of the state since from our point of view, we are unable to determine that state with precision. We assign the wave function during our study of an interaction. Not because it is real, but as a tool since we must accept both values. We collapse it when or if we determine the result. But the tunneling or positioning occurs as it always has, outside of our observation, as well. When it does, we do not assign a wave function. We do not see the collapse. But it happens, nonetheless.

    In the case of Proton Tunneling in a molecule in DNA, the event occurs. The only difference is if we notice it.
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I don't agree. Again, I adhere to the Copenhagen Interpretation.
    The Copenhagen interpretation in fact includes superpositions. The cat is both dead and alive per the the Copenhagen Interpretation. ( = superposition ). Per Copenhagen Interpretation the proton both tunnels and doesn't.

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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    an object is not literally super-positioned. The wave function is merely a description of the state since from our point of view, we are unable to determine that state with precision. We assign the wave function during our study of an interaction.
    How can the double slit experiment's results be explained without superposition of light waves?

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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    No, the Copenhagen Interpretation is that it is accepted that the state is recognized in that manner for the sake of observation, only. That cat is not literally both states, it is treated as though it is both states and there is a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    How can the double slit experiment's results be explained without superposition of light waves?
    Because it is our instrumentation and method of detection that either interferes or even entangles with the particle or photon.
    We are unable to observe directly. This means that we must use some other physical object to interact with the experiment but in so doing, we also alter the outcome.
    The dilemma is not about what is physically happening, as it is about how to measure it in a meaningful way.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Because it is our instrumentation and method of detection that either interferes or even entangles with the particle or photon.
    We are unable to observe directly. This means that we must use some other physical object to interact with the experiment but in so doing, we also alter the outcome.
    The dilemma is not about what is physically happening, as it is about how to measure it in a meaningful way.
    It is not our instrumentation that causes the interference. Light is interfering with itself. The wave goes through both slits and interferes with itself.
    Last edited by Neverfly; 04-26-2016 at 05:26 PM.

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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    It is not our instrumentation that causes the interference. Light is interfering with itself. The wave goes through both slits and interferes with itself.
    Yes, but that is the base experiment and the results of that are always consistent. I am referring to our instrumentation in more complex experiments. This often leads to misconceptions and the following REALLY BAD video promotes those misconceptions with a vengeance.:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
    Warning! The above video is stupid.
    The "eyeball" the video depicts as a graphic of "Observation" is actually our instrumentation. It is not the act of observing that causes the entanglement, it is the placement of physical instrumentation in the path that causes it.

    By the way, sorry- I thought I hit reply with quote...
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    tom
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    Default Re: Proton Tunneling within a compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    it is treated as though it is both states and there is a difference.
    References please ...

    This is my understanding of it. Quantum = reality. Things happen on quantum terms. No measurement is possible as any measurement does not measure the system but actually measures the system and observer pair ... It is impossible to remove the observer from the observation.

    You state with confidence :
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    That cat is not literally both states


    I would like you to prove that, without observation. In the quantum world everything is linear, everything exists as probabilities and amplitudes, certainty is non-linear. There is no other way to explain it without introducing non-linearity and the observer/measurement problem.

    Superpositions, as shown in the double slit experiment can interfere with each other.

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