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Thread: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

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    Default 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    I would like to discuss the 4+1 model of the universe. 4 space dimensions and one time dimension. Is it mainstream? Kaluza-Klein model is a 5- dimensional model and accused not having reality in the other dimensions. But the fact that the space includes everything and has no outside is a reality of the space of the universe and it is the 4. dimension, vector, in mathematics. So simple. How to proceed? With the moderators first?

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    Moderator Neverfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Hello, Olli, I took the liberty of moving the thread to the SpaceTime and the Universe discussion board.
    Which higher dimensional model are you referring to?
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Hello, Olli, I took the liberty of moving the thread to the SpaceTime and the Universe discussion board.
    Which higher dimensional model are you referring to?
    Just that. 4+1. Our universe has a 4. dimension in the reality. It is the fact that in the space of the universe there is everything and there is no outside. Mathematically it is one more coordinate to the x-, y- and z- coordinates in the analytical geometry, one more vector in the vector algebra. And one time- dimension. 4+1 dimensions.

    In the KK- theory, Kaluza-Klein theory the equations of the GR have been transformed to 5. dimensional space, so this is possible, it can be done.

    Theory has no reality for all the 5 dimension. But there is the 4. space dimension in the reality as I point here, and one time- dimension as always.

    Other critic is that no evidence has been found. But when the galaxies move in the 4. dimensional space, not in the 3- dimensional space, the red shift is possible without the expansion. In my mind this is a strong evidence. Same with the radiation. The model fits with evidence even when something does not directly follow that we can experimentally study. And we can keep on on the eternal and infinite (no border) universe. With different periods of the universe, something static too. Strong evidence.

    I can not study exactly what follows and how strictly the evidence fits or not. So I must ask this for you. The main point is that this is so easy: just put the 4. space- dimension to the model. This even can be considered as a mainstream model.

    There is math, there is evidence, there is reality for the dimensions. Is it true like that? I must ask this of the more vise man than me.

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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    So far as we know, it is not true.

    As you know, it's been investigated, and it doesn't seem to fit the data. So far, anyway.

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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Well, there is also Randall-Sudman (I think I got those names right), which is why I asked.
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
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    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    So far as we know, it is not true.

    As you know, it's been investigated, and it doesn't seem to fit the data. So far, anyway.
    Such commentary would really upset Sheldon Cooper, you know:P
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Quote Originally Posted by grapes View Post
    So far as we know, it is not true.

    As you know, it's been investigated, and it doesn't seem to fit the data. So far, anyway.
    Well, that is exactly what I asked. Why does it not fit the data? Can you be more specific? Why is the 4. dimension not a reality as I stated? Did you mean the KK- theory or the 4+1 theories generally?

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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Well, there is also Randall-Sudman (I think I got those names right), which is why I asked.
    Yes, thanks. I found Randall-Sundrum model in Wikipedia. But there was no facts there either of the question does any 4+1 model fit the evidence, and if not, why.

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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olli S View Post
    Yes, thanks. I found Randall-Sundrum model in Wikipedia. But there was no facts there either of the question does any 4+1 model fit the evidence, and if not, why.
    Whether or not a model fits the evidence is based on two basics:
    1.) Does it match Currently Observed Conditions
    2.) Does it predict the results of experimentation to test the model and does the result match the prediction

    The problem with Higher Dimension models is that there are many aspects by which there are no means of predicting or testing. Super-Symmetry models have the same problem.
    But there are some tidbits; For example, Kaluza Klein model Predicts higher dimension resonances with particles as well as Kaluza Klein "Partner Particles." A powerful enough collider would be able to observe the existence of both.
    CERN's LHC is now such a collider due to recent developing of the equipment used, enabling a doubling of power. However, repeated experiments have yielded no evidence at all for KK Partner Particles.
    https://home.cern/about/physics/extr...ny-black-holes
    --Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges--
    “Science needs the light of free expression to flourish. It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, and the open exchange of ideas.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    "When photons interact with electrons, they are interacting with the charge around a "bare" mass, and thus the interaction is electromagnetic, hence light. This light slows the photon down." - BuleriaChk

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    Default Re: 4+1 Universe. Where and how to discuss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Whether or not a model fits the evidence is based on two basics:
    1.) Does it match Currently Observed Conditions
    2.) Does it predict the results of experimentation to test the model and does the result match the prediction

    The problem with Higher Dimension models is that there are many aspects by which there are no means of predicting or testing. Super-Symmetry models have the same problem.
    But there are some tidbits; For example, Kaluza Klein model Predicts higher dimension resonances with particles as well as Kaluza Klein "Partner Particles." A powerful enough collider would be able to observe the existence of both.
    CERN's LHC is now such a collider due to recent developing of the equipment used, enabling a doubling of power. However, repeated experiments have yielded no evidence at all for KK Partner Particles.
    https://home.cern/about/physics/extr...ny-black-holes
    The 1.) and 2.) are fine and good. Of cause. It seems to be so, that there in fact exist not any good 4+1 model yet. So the whole thing is not yet possible to understand thoroughly.

    This article looks pointing to other kinds of dimensions as this one. There might be for example the spirit world (this is of cause not science, but there might be things that we don't know and which are not visible and so on). As the time, the other possible dimensions are not exactly dimensions, the invisible dimension is not a space- dimension, it is the spirit world dimension (or something else), as time is a time- dimension. But the 4. space dimension is real and is a space- dimension.

    Well, maybe somebody knows more. Let's wait.

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